Ray: 我是Ray。
I’m Ray

Kandace: 我是Kandace。
I’m Kandace

Ray: 欢迎大家收看Unpacking Coffee。这周
Welcome to Unpacking Coffee. This week…

Kandace: 我们跟着Seesaw 来到了中国。
We are heading to China with Seesaw.

Seesaw成立于2012年,而且他们应该称得上是中国第三波咖啡浪潮的领跑者。
They were founded in 2012, and they are basically the pioneers of third wave coffee in China.

Ray: 对于我们节目而言,这不仅仅是第一次采访一家中国的咖啡烘焙坊,也是第一次以中文的形式呈现。
This is a first for the show. Not only are we talking about a roaster in China, and showing the interview in Chinese.

我们还品尝到来自中国的咖啡,这也是我的第一次。
We are tasting coffee that came from China, which I have never tasted before.

地处于中国南部的云南省有着适宜咖啡种植的高海拔和气候条件,那里的咖啡品质很棒。
In Yunnan region in the south of China is of high elevation and good growing conditions for coffee, and the coffee is really good.

我们有幸与创始人Tom以及他们的第一位员工Lema进行了一次对话。
We actually spoke to Tom, the founder, and Lema, who is the first employee, employee NO. 1.

Tom, founder of Seesaw Coffee

Tom: Hello 我是Tom我来自浙江义乌
Hello, my name is Tom and I’m from a city in Zhejiang called Yiwu

然后我是Seesaw Coffee的创始人
And I’m the founder of Seesaw Coffee

我曾经是一个在IT公司上班
I used to work for a tech company

然后有过两次的创业经历
And I’ve also run a couple other startups

然后一次是设计
One in design

还有一次是关于贸易
The other one in trading

大概就是我的经历
That’s my working experience in a nutshell

Lema, number one employee of Seesaw Coffee

Lema: Hello我叫Lema 我是Seesaw的第一名员工
Hello, my name is Lema, and I’m employee number one at Seesaw

我大学学习的建筑设计
I studied architecture and design when I was in college

但我没做过一天建筑设计
But I didn’t spend a single day in architecture and design

Seesaw是我的第一份工作
Seesaw was my first and only job

然后我很喜欢咖啡师这个职业
And I really appreciate working at Seesaw as a barista

因为在这里可以见到形形色色的人
Because you get to meet people from all walks of life

可以听到他们的故事
You can learn about their stories.

告诉我们创建Seesaw咖啡的心路历程吧
Tell us the story of how Seesaw Coffee was founded

Tom: 跟咖啡一直还是蛮有缘分的
Actually I feel like I’ve somehow always had a connection of sorts with coffee.

就是之前在IT公司上班的时候
While working at the tech company

有过一次去云南咖啡
I once took a trip

庄园旅游的一个经历吧
To a coffee farm in Yunnan,

然后也有接触当地的一些咖啡农
Where I met some local farmers

当时觉得咖啡这个行业在中国的前景很大
And I came to realize that the coffee industry was promising in China.

刚好是一次WBC比赛然后喝到了一个选手不一样的卡布奇诺
Once I happened to be at a WBC event and I experienced a completely different
cappuccino made by a contestant.

然后那个时候觉得
It was about that point that I felt

虽然我不常喝咖啡 但是跟我以前喝到的咖啡不一样
That though I don’t drink much coffee, this cup of coffee tasted different what I had known before

对这个挺好奇
I was very curious about it. It piqued my interest

随着更深入的去了解这个东西
And this gradually developed my interest in learning about coffee.

然后那个时候听到了一个叫Specialty Coffee的一个概念
At the same time, I began hearing about this thing called specialty coffee

然后一直很好奇为什么咖啡已经有那么长的一个历史
And it made me wonder why it was that out of coffee’s long history

咖啡馆也存在那么长的一个历史
As well as that of coffee houses

为什么现在有这样的一个概念出来
Would a concept such as specialty coffee only come out now.

然后再去研究背后的一个原因的时候发现
When I did more research later I found that

这种特别或者说这种
This sort of uniqueness or these sorts of things

Reign Man coffee from Seesaw

有个性、有态度、很不一样美感的这样的一些事物吧
Featured with distinct characters, attitudes, and aesthetics

开始在全世界各地的一些经济、艺术、文化
Have begun to play out across economies, art and culture.

比较发达的这样的地区开始流行
In some regions of the world where more advanced economy, art and culture exist
particularly in certain places in the world

那我们觉得这个概念上海应该有很大的一个机会
And it seemed like a good opportunity for Shanghai

我觉得咖啡是一个很好的载体
Coffee seemed to be a great way to do that

所以就开始决定要做这个事情
So I decided to start up my own coffee house.

整个创立Seesaw到现在的一个过程
Looking back on the process of founding Seesaw to now,

我们自己觉得就是说
We think that

我们无非做的这些事情
What we have focused on

想让自己的生活变得更有趣一点
Is to make life a little bit more interesting

还可以把这种有趣可以跟身边的人一起去分享
And to have fun with the people around you.

关于设计
About the design

Ray: 他们的设计十分有趣,是一种非常独特的艺术风格,不同种类的咖啡搭配着不同的设计色调和包装,很有新意。
The design is really fun. The art style is really unique, and the color palette ties in with their packaging and the types of coffee really well.

Bags showing names of coffee such as Reign Man and Melonhead

这些包装袋非常有意思,他们还给你这些小卡片,以及别出心裁的海报。
The bags are fun. They give you these cards. They have these really pretty posters they sent.

Kandace: 插画风格非常棒,我也很喜欢他们的名字。
Great illustrative style. I kind of love the names.

Ray: 咖啡的名字吗?是的。
Of the coffees? Yeah.

Seesaw 代表了什么呢? Seesaw又是怎样的一个公司呢?
What does Seesaw stand for and what is it like as a company?

Lema, number 1 employee at Seesaw

Lema: 虽然我的身份定义是一个咖啡师
Although I started as a barista

但是Seeesaw因此并没有把我框死
Seesaw never put any limits to my career here

而是让我的好奇心能够被展现出来
The company always let me do the things I was curious about

我觉着这一点是让我觉得兴奋有意思的地方
Which is what makes it so exciting and interesting here

Tom: 最开始做这个事情的时候其实
Actually, at the very beginning

缺少很多的资源
We didn’t have a lot of resources around us.

那我们第一家店的工程
When we built our first store

有很大一部分是我们自己参与去做的
We ended up doing most of the work ourselves

那跟我之前的经历也有关系
Which was helped by my previous experience

因为我之前也有做过建筑设计的背景
That is, my background in architecture and design

所以每一家店的设计
So when we designed each coffee shop

我们会根据那个店的地理位置
We’d consider its location,

周边的人群的特点
The characteristics of the people and community

然后整个空间的形式
And the spatial form

去定位、去重新思考如果这是我们第一家店的话
To position and rethink what we would do

我们怎么会去做这样的一个店
If this were our first coffee house

希望带来怎么样的一些体验
And what kind of experience we would expect to provide.

我们希望可以带给大家是这种
We strive to bring constant surprises

不断的一些惊喜和一些体验
And brand new experiences to the public.

Seesaw的咖啡体验有什么不同之处呢?您认为哪些方面让Seesaw咖啡这么与众不同?
What’s special about Seesaw’s coffee experience? Or what do you think sets Seesaw apart?

Lema: 我觉得Seesaw是一个提供“SpecialtyCoffee”的体验
In my opinion, Seesaw offers unique coffee experiences—“Specialty Coffee” to the communities we serve

其实“SpecialtyCoffee“的概念是说还原产地风味
Specialty coffee gives respect to the place of origin and its flavor profile

那有个核心就是个性和独特吧
At its core is its personality and uniqueness

所以在“Specialty Coffee”里面
In specialty coffee,

你可能在Seesaw不同的门店喝到不一样的咖啡
Seesaw, offers coffee that tastes different from other places

而咖啡师本身会在咖啡上面有自己的理解
Each of our baristas has his or her own understanding of coffee.

但我觉得这并不是一个问题
But I don’t see this as a problem

因为如果你接受了或选择了“Specialty Coffee”这个概念的话
Because if you’re open to specialty coffee

那整个喝咖啡的过程和体验
It’s the process and experience of tasting that is core to specialty coffee

以及寻找属于自己味道的这个过程
Along with the process of hunting for a flavor profile that feels right for you that creates the complete experience.

可能才是“Specialty Coffee“最核心的东西
When you get down to it, that’s probably the core of specialty

这个体验才是最完整的
It creates a more complete experience

Bottom of Seesaw packaging showing details in Chinese

您是引领中国手工咖啡的前沿人物,可以谈谈中国的咖啡文化以及引进手工咖啡意味着什么吗?
You are at the forefront of the craft coffee movement in China. Could you talk a bit about coffee culture in China and what it means to be building the craft coffee movement?

Tom: 其实咖啡对于中国的消费者来说它还是一个舶来品
Actually, coffee is still a foreign product for Chinese consumers

从严格的意义的角度上讲中国并没有自己的一个咖啡文化
Strictly speaking, China doesn’t have its own coffee culture

在国外它可能是一有很长时间的消费和历史的沉淀
In the West, coffee culture has gone through a never ending evolution among consumers

它有一个第一波、第二波、第三波咖啡浪潮推进的一个过程
Including the development of coffee’s first, second, and third waves.

但是在中国第一波、第二波、第三波咖啡浪潮同时发生
But here in China, the first, second, and third waves have happened or are happening simultaneously.

从商业的角度来说可能这也是精品咖啡
From a business perspective, this provides more opportunities for

在中国有一个更大的机会的一个阶段
The development of specialty coffee in China.

然后Seesaw想做的一个事情也是希望
One thing that Seesaw has focused on at this point

能够在这样的一个阶段机会点上面可以
Is to build upon our experiences here and

积累和沉淀出属于我们自己属于中国
Build our own sort of coffee culture

或者说可以代表上海的一个咖啡文化
Or a coffee culture that represents Shanghai

Lema: 我觉得就是从咖啡师的角度来讲
From the perspective of a barista,

中国其实有它本身的咖啡认知在里面
China actually has its own understanding of coffee.

而且在现在这个时间点上面的话
At this very moment

中西方文化在中国有非常多的对抗,咖啡又是一个舶来品
There are big differences between the Chinese and Western culture in China, and coffee happens to be an foreign product

所以就是导致有很多不一样和特别激烈的声音出现
And so strong opinions and thoughts have been emerging.

在我们的角度上看的话,这可能只是一个选择问题
In our point of view, it’s more of a matter of personal choice.

我觉得Seeesaw只是提供了更多的选择
Seesaw offers more options

而咖啡风味的选择权应该交给那些喝咖啡的人
The choice of coffee flavor depends on the people who drink coffee

也就是我们的客人
That is to say, our customers.

Tom: 那刚他说是咖啡的风味
Well, he mentioned the flavor of coffee just now

对于传统的大家对于咖啡的一个认知来说
Most people would say, traditionally speaking,

通常大家都会觉得咖啡是苦的
Most people would say that coffee tastes bitter.

那精品咖啡它一直强调的一点其实咖啡不仅仅是苦的
While something that those in specialty coffee has stressed is that the flavor of coffee isn’t confined to bitterness.

Seesaw Coffee packaging

咖啡风味是有非常多样的
The flavor of coffee is diverse

不管是它的酸、它的甜味、它的香气
Its sourness, sweetness, and aroma

都是有不一样的一个表达
All represent different feelings

我觉得这是也是精品咖啡它的一个特别有魅力的地方
I think that’s what makes specialty coffee extremely attractive.

我们听说你们直接与中国咖农合作,共同致力于研究咖啡生产和收获技术。在中国可以直接种植咖啡吗?你能告诉我们关于Seesaw云南产区的故事吗?(云南是中国唯一的咖啡产区)
We hear you work directly with Chinese farmers on processing and harvesting techniques. What is happening with growing coffee directly in China? Could you tell us about Seesaw Yunnan? (Yunnan being the only place in China that produces coffee.)

Tom: 其实包括很多咖啡行业的人可能都不太知道
It remains unknown to the majority of people in the coffee industry that

云南其实它的咖啡种植历史已经超过120年
Yunnan actually has a history of coffee planting for more than 120 years.

每年的产量也是可以进世界全十
Its annual production ranks among the top ten in the world

而且本身它的一个气候 地理位置、海拔各种因素
Meanwhile, Yunnan’s climate, geographical position, altitude,

它是具备了可以产出更好的咖啡品质的这样的一些条件
And various factors all contribute to its better quality.

可是它的一个种植技术还是停留在最原始的这样的一个阶段
However, most local farms are in the early stages of learning about planting techniques.

Coffee label showing Yunnan origin

有参观过当地的这个咖啡的庄园
I visited a local coffee farm

然后跟咖农也有一些接触
And I met with coffee farmers

所以在我们开始做Seesaw之后
So, after we embarked on Seesaw,

当我们开始深入了解精品咖啡的时候
In other words, when we truly got an in-depth understanding of specialty coffee,

我们发现其实我们可以把我们了解到的
We found that we could share

更先进的种植采摘或者处理这样的管理技术
The advanced technology of planting, harvesting,

可以跟当地的一些咖农去做分享
And processing that we’ve learned with local coffee farmers

也因为这样的一个想法
And because of this idea,

所以我们制定了一个“云南的一个十年计划”
We’ve created our “Ten Year Plan for Yunnan.”

然后去到国外的很多一些比较发达的产区
Then, we went to many developed regions

或者是一些庄园去了解
And visited coffee farms with advanced production technologies to learn more

Seesaw at La Marzocco Cafe

对于云南我们很希望把我们所了解到的
We would like to share what we have learned

更好的种植、采摘、处理的这样的技术
The more advanced methods of planting, harvesting, and processing

跟当地的咖农去做分享
with local coffee farmers.

在Seesaw成立的每一年
Since the founding of Seesaw,

我们都会去到云南去跟更多的一些咖农去交流去合作
We’ve paid visits to Yunnan every year, aiming to share our experiences.

然后让他们知道如何更好的去提高咖啡处理的水平
We strive for win-win cooperations with local coffee farmers and we empower them to learn about these techniques for improving coffee processing

以及对种植技术更精致的一个要求
As well as the demanding requirements for planting.

我们也愿意去支付一个更高的溢价
We’re also willing to offer an even higher premium,

让农民有更好的收入
So as to help the farmers to earn more.

我们的团队其实每年会去到云南
Our team makes an annual trip to Yunnan

当然不单单只是云南
Of course, not merely to Yunnan

Seesaw at La Marzocco Cafe in Seattle

也会去到肯尼亚、埃塞俄比亚、也跟中南美洲跟亚洲的这些
We also go to Kenya, Ethiopia, Central and South America, and across Asia,

精品的咖啡庄园都建立了联系
Establishing business relationships with local specialty coffee farms

Ray: 这个月,他们将来到美国,入驻La Marzocco咖啡馆。

Seesaw团队在西雅图La Marzocco咖啡厅的体验包括哪些内容?
What will the Seesaw experience at La Marzocco Café consist of?

Lema: 就这次我们去到西雅图的话肯定会带我们的云南过去
This time, we will certainly bring our Yunnan specialty coffee to Seattle

所以大家肯定会喝到我们的云南咖啡
So you can have a taste of Yunnan

然后我们为大家做了一些特别的饮品
And we also prepared some signature drinks for everyone

也跟我们的云南咖啡有些关系
Which ties back to Yunnan coffee

那同时我们会用一种中国式的方式为大家去呈现我们的咖啡
At the same time, we’ll present coffee to you through a Chinese lens

Tom: 通过这几年的一个努力我们也让更多消费者了解
Through years of hard work, we’ve allowed the customer to realize that

云南其实也有非常高品质的咖啡
High-quality coffee also exists in Yunnan

甚至我们云南咖啡也得到了国际上的一些
And our Yunnan coffee has been received a certain amount of recognition

精品咖啡行业同行很高的一个评价
Amongst the international specialty coffee industry

那对我们来说我们希望这是一个
We’re expecting that this can be a fresh start for us

我们可以把云南咖啡带出中国的一个开始
To be able to introduce Yunnan coffee to everyone across the world

我们也希望通过这个机会让更多人了解Seesaw
We are also hoping that with this opportunity, more people will get to know Seesaw

了解我们的中国云南的好咖啡
And learn more about the delicious coffee of Yunnan in China.

Ray: 如果你刚好在西雅图,那你一定要去看一下,品尝一下他们的咖啡
If you are anywhere at Seattle, you should go. You should go and try it.

来自中国的精品咖啡,Seesaw。
Seesaw, specialty coffee from China.